In this episode Dr. Gordon discusses how aging increases protein requirements. We cover the pros and cons of vegetarianism and animal protein and we even touch upon the health benefits of raw liver.
Dawn Lemanne, MD
Oregon Integrative Oncology
Leave no stone unturned.
Deborah Gordon, MD
Northwest Wellness and Memory Center
Building Healthy Brains
[00:00:00.170] - Dr. Gordon
We need the essential amino acids. So people who eat everything are happy to find out that anything that's sourced from an animal dairy, eggs, meat contain all the essential amino acids. We are much alike with those species and they have products from their cherished bodies that serve as exactly the food we need. You might say--but I really love this tofu steak at my local lunch place.
[00:00:29.020] - Dr. Lemanne
[00:00:29.800] - Dr. Gordon
Have it with some cheese on the top. Have it with dairy on the side to complete the protein.
[00:01:09.510] - Dr. Lemanne
Dr. Gordon discusses how aging increases protein requirements. We cover the pros and cons of vegetarianism and animal protein and we even touch upon the health benefits of raw liver.
[00:01:25.290] - Dr. Gordon
I've had this awareness recently, I've been interested in nutrition since I kind of discovered at the end of high school -- why are my parents eating white bread when there's whole grain bread? That was my first step into nutrition and Adele Davis. But it's gone through many chapters. But I'd have to say, recently I've fallen in love with protein. And I now think of protein as the unattended to child that needs a lot more attention in the family. All of us could benefit from having more and more conscientious protein in our diet. And I'm so excited to get to talk to you about it because I know there's areas where I could learn from you or perhaps just argue with you.
[00:02:08.090] - Dr. Lemanne
We could do both, I think. Let's start with Adele Davis. Raw liver. Raw liver. Big tubs of it, right?
[00:02:17.800] - Dr. Gordon
I think so. What I do when I recommend raw liver as one of baby's first foods--SO if you're going to give it to your baby, raw liver can harbor pathogens. So you have to sterilize the raw liver and you can't sterilize it by cooking it because then it's no longer raw liver.
[00:02:36.060] - Dr. Lemanne
We are going to talk about eating raw liver.
[00:02:40.730] - Dr. Gordon
I had no intention but you knew something about Adele Davis that I'd forgotten. And I would say I learned it later on from the Weston Price Foundation. But their suggestion is you cut up your raw liver into tiny bite size fit in an ice cube tray pieces. You put them on a cookie sheet and you freeze them in your freezer for seven to 14 days and anything that would live in them is dead. So then you take out your ice cube blocks a few at a time. And babies love raw liver.
[00:03:13.990] - Dr. Lemanne
[00:03:15.480] - Dr. Gordon
They don't even need the stick.
[00:03:17.110] - Dr. Lemanne
I'm getting the picture. Yeah. Okay. Would I want the stick. Well, anyway, are there other parts of the animal that you like that we can talk about protein wise?
[00:03:29.500] - Dr. Gordon
Well, if we're thinking about protein, the muscle meats are probably the richest source of protein, whereas the offal—the organ meats—are the richest source of co-protein-effective factors.
[00:03:43.290] - Dr. Lemanne
And we're talking about awful—O_F_F_A_L ?
[00:03:48.730] - Dr. Gordon
And don't you try and spell it another way because it's not. Although I will say people's preferences in the realm of awful are highly idiosyncratic and that I understand. I have two patients formerly vegetarians, but because of their severe iron deficiency, I was able to convince them both to eat--they went for liver, but nothing stronger than that
[00:04:10.740] - Dr. Lemanne
You've convinced vegetarians to eat offal or just liver?
[00:04:14.200] - Dr. Gordon
[00:04:15.230] - Dr. Lemanne
You should run for office.
[00:04:18.770] - Dr. Gordon
I have two patients intolerant of oral supplementation for various reasons or it was ineffective and absorbable. Iron is very high in muscle meat of ruminant animals. It's highest in bison and probably other wild animals. It's highest in liver in the animal and its highest per bite in chicken liver. My favorite liver is chicken liver
[00:04:47.040] - Dr. Lemanne
I like chicken liver, I do, but it's cooked.
[00:04:49.030] - Dr. Gordon
I make a batch of pate that I think anyone would like. Somebody who likes steak would like it. Somebody who doesn't like liver would like it. It's got butter, red onions, different things in it, even sometimes an apple. But I particularly like eating tongue. I think it makes great tacos. And I've told several people …
[00:05:12.700] - Dr. Lemanne
Taco, a tongue taco and people definitely pornographic. I want to know why you like protein so much. Now, I've heard you've told me that there are research studies that show that the more muscle mass you have, the longer you're going to live. Is that the reason you're eating a lot of protein? Do you think it goes into your muscle mass and it's going to make you live longer?
[00:05:31.180] - Dr. Gordon
[00:05:31.520] - Dr. Lemanne
Because that's what this show is about, right?
[00:05:33.130] - Dr. Gordon
Yes. Living longer and so living longer and living better. So your muscle mass will help your heart have more beats in your life? Yes. It also helps your brain work better. It is a good predictor of longevity.
[00:05:47.650] - Dr. Lemanne
[00:05:48.400] - Dr. Gordon
[00:05:49.180] - Dr. Lemanne
And if we measure somebody's muscle mass and compared to somebody else, we can say if the person with more muscle mass is going to live longer.
[00:05:55.300] - Dr. Gordon
You know, the way observational studies goes, you can't do one by one. But if you could say if you take 50 people with higher muscle mass and 50 people with lower muscle mass and I know that study exists and I'll find it, I know where to look for it. The people with the higher muscle mass as a group will tend to live longer, their brains will tend to work better. That was actually publicized recently conveying the beneficial effects to the brain of having muscle mass. And one of them
[00:06:23.790] - Dr. Lemanne
So wait a Minute, being a meathead makes you smarter. Absolutely. Well, look at me.
00:06:28.910] - Dr. Gordon
Just look at me. I must admit my bias. I've always loved meat, and I always did notice that. I also love the fat on the meat. I would eat everybody's fat off their steak plates when I was clearing the table. And we would agree. But you'd leave some of the steak for me to finish as well.
[00:06:49.140] - Dr. Lemanne
I would prefer the fat, especially when I was a kid, that was what I would I would go around and get the adults’ fat. They didn't want it. It’s delicious.
[00:06:56.550] - Dr. Gordon
And a nice rare steak.
[00:06:59.310] - Dr. Lemanne
Oh, rare is very, very good. I bought a new smoker. Oh, yeah.
[00:07:04.540] - Dr. Gordon
You can do wonderful things, I hear, with a smoker.
[00:07:06.720] - Dr. Lemanne
I smoked a big pork belly last weekend.
[00:07:09.010] - Dr. Gordon
Oh, wonderful. Smoked brisket is something that makes me consider buying a smoker. But don't you attract bears to your backyard?
[00:07:17.990] - Dr. Lemanne
Yes, we have to stand out there with the hose.
[00:07:23.150] - Dr. Gordon
Will they come while you're actually out there?
[00:07:25.200] - Dr. Lemanne
They have not while we're smoking, but that's a concern. They come through our yard all the time.
[00:07:30.830] - Dr. Gordon
They only come through my yard in the fall. And right now, there is green apple poop in my driveway from the bears that are ravaging my apple tree at night.
[00:07:40.950] - Dr. Lemanne
Wow. Well, bears have big muscle mass. Do they eat a lot of protein?
[00:07:44.350] - Dr. Gordon
Well, they also store a lot of fat because of all the berries and things they eat. So eating a lot of fruit, fruitarian is a great way to be a bear and hibernate over the winter with your stored body fat.
[00:07:59.170] - Dr. Lemanne
So eating fruit is a way to store body fat
[00:08:01.510] - Dr. Gordon
It is. And I think we've referred to discussions we've heard on other podcasts about the changing effect of fructose or fruit as we age. And as we age it, more and more can contribute to fat, either in the liver or in the body.
[00:08:19.010] - Dr. Lemanne
That's concerning. I had a banana yesterday.
[00:08:24.470] - Dr. Gordon
Right in my presence.
[00:08:25.690] - Dr. Lemanne
Yes, I remember.
[00:08:27.410] - Dr. Gordon
Look at all that fruit. Dirty
[00:08:29.340] - Dr. Lemanne
Look. Yeah. Well, if you eat a lot of meat to gain muscle mass, do you also have to exercise? Is that something you have to you.
[00:08:36.390] - Dr. Gordon
Gain more benefit by doing not just exercising, not just going for a good hike or a brisk walk, but actually doing resistance, exercising and building the mass of your muscle. So doing the work, building the muscle. You know how muscles get stronger, which is you work them out really hard and you damage them a little bit, and your body cleans them up the next day and it's going to rebuild them. And if it has a surplus of amino acids in your circulation, which is your body's number one priority about what to do with amino acid with protein is to keep the amino acid pool in the bloodstream. Optimal, if there is a surplus, your body will repair yesterday's exercise damaged muscle with muscle fiber and sinew rather than with connective tissue, because all you ate for breakfast was a pear and a bowl of Cheerios
[00:09:28.090] - Dr. Lemanne
So how does this relate to age? I mean, if you have a patient who say in their late seventy s or early 80s, do you tell them to eat a lot of protein and exercise and do they have to eat more protein than a younger person?
[00:09:40.010] - Dr. Gordon
Exactly, that is right. They not only need to eat, I say to them, they say, but it says in the public health guidelines, I only need 60 grams of protein a day. I said that's, right? You only maybe need to absorb 60 grams of protein, but at your age to do that, you need to eat 90 to 120.
[00:09:56.850] - Dr. Lemanne
So absorption goes down with age, hence the requirement for ingestion of more grams of protein to get the absorption that you want.
00:10:04.260] - Dr. Gordon
And I would go farther than that and suggest that in some form or another you need to help your body do that digestion. And you can do an analysis of somebody's stool and find out exactly what cofactors they need. But I just recommend a basic digestive enzyme. And when I did that to an ayurvedic expert patient of mine, she said, oh, you know, you can do the same thing with ginger and the herbal kind of supplements.
[00:10:29.830] - Dr. Lemanne
So what's in your digestive enzymes?
[00:10:32.430] - Dr. Gordon
It's a combination of betaine HCL, so it has a little bit of stomach acid, which goes down as we age, not goes up. Old people don't have heartburn because they have more stomach acid. They have heartburn because they have less stomach acid, which retards gastric emptying and results in reflux.
[00:10:51.390] - Dr. Lemanne
That's really interesting. So Betaine, is that from beets?
[00:10:55.880] - Dr. Gordon
I think it can be derived from beets, but I imagine by the time they're producing supplements at scale, it is chemically mimicking something from beets. Yes, it's a useful supplement. Betane is very useful in other ways, but a digestive enzyme I would recommend to people will have some form of HCL or HCL analog or HCL booster.
[00:11:20.110] - Dr. Lemanne
So HCL is hydrochloric acid. Stomach acid.
[00:11:22.640] - Dr. Gordon
[00:11:23.180] - Dr. Lemanne
Can you just swallow stomach acid?
[00:11:26.330] - Dr. Gordon
Well, I never have actually thought of that, but I would think it would be if it were coated so it wouldn't dissolve until it got to your stomach.
[00:11:34.180] - Dr. Lemanne
So these are pills and they're not liquids or anything like that
[00:11:37.170] - Dr. Gordon
There might be some liquids that I don't know about, and I'm sure somebody listening knows more about that market than I do. But no, I pick different capsules and I tell people, I'm going to give you one that I think works great. And if you find a different one at your local health food store or from your Aunt Sally and it works better for you, I am not attached, but I want you to be able to eat a full meal, ideally get up and walk for five minutes afterwards and not feel bloated or sleepy after you eat.
[00:12:07.350] - Dr. Lemanne
So betaine hydrochloric acid, do you ever prescribe pancreatic enzymes?
[00:12:13.300] - Dr. Gordon
Yes. And so sometimes they are specifically fat digesting. I give people concentrated lipase if they have a lot of undigested fat. But the one I like and many of the ones that are available in the market, they don't know what your stool test looks like, so they put together a combo that's going to work for somebody who can't digest fat and for somebody else who has more trouble with protein. So it's a combination enzyme meant to be a crowd pleaser.
[00:12:38.360] - Dr. Lemanne
So let me make sure I've got this right. So you check the stool of the.
[00:12:41.830] - Dr. Gordon
Patient if somebody wants to be convinced that they need digestive enzymes?
[00:12:46.160] - Dr. Lemanne
Yes. Okay. And you look for difficulties digesting protein or difficulties digesting fat, and there might be a combination, and then you recommend digestive aid based on those findings?
[00:12:57.410] - Dr. Gordon
I do, but pretty much, I'd say you're over 50. Why don't you just try taking this digestive enzyme for a while and see how you feel after you eat? Oh, I don't get so sleepy and fall asleep watching television. Oh, I don't get that early afternoon need for a third cup of coffee. So do you feel better?
[00:13:17.600] - Dr. Lemanne
So eating protein in the middle of the day, if you don't digest it well, it can make you sleepy.
[00:13:22.620] - Dr. Gordon
I think, eating anything in the middle of the day or eating anything at any time. So I think we need help digesting the protein. And our standard American diet is very low in protein relative to what I would recommend, which is approaching astronomical levels for what most people eat. Shortcut, in medical terms, is a gram and a half per kilogram of body weight. Assuming we're the average 70 kilogram, man or woman, that's 100 grams of protein on sedentary days.
[00:13:53.280] - Dr. Lemanne
[00:13:54.000] - Dr. Gordon
And more than that on other days, it's the grams of protein in that meat. So you and I were just saying we really liked a fatty steak, so you only get to measure the meat part of it. Meat is complex in and of itself. It has other nutrients, other components besides protein. I want to answer your question and tell you also the thing I learned recently that is most exciting to me. Say you have a chicken breast. It might weigh 4oz or, which is if you went to chemistry, I believe that's 120 grams. But it probably only has 30 grams of protein in it. So you don't get credit for the weight of the element. You have to look it up on a nutrition table and Dr. Google or probably any other search engine knows really well how many grams of protein in a chicken breast. Do you mean half a chicken breast or a full chicken breast? A decent sized half a chicken breast will have 30 grams of protein. And I am just suggesting as a 70 kilogram person that you should have between 100 and 140–one and a half to 2 grams of protein for each kilogram of body weight, total body weight.
[00:15:04.890] - Dr. Gordon
Make it as simple as possible, three quarters to your full weight in grams of protein. So the only really scientific thing I ask people to do is to start figuring out how many grams of protein are in the different foods they eat.
[00:15:18.170] - Dr. Lemanne
Okay, well, I've been taking your advice, and I had to switch it to pounds of body weight because I just can't do kilograms without a calculator in my hand. And I think it came out to about 0.8 grams of protein per pound of body weight. So I weigh about 150. I find that hard. It's hard to get that amount of protein. If I get up to 120-130, I'm kind of aiming for about 130-140. I don't always make that. Sometimes I've had to add things like Whey protein powder and things like that to just get up there. It's really hard without a supplement, I've found. Do you find that supplementing with anything is useful, or would you recommend against that?
[00:15:58.960] - Dr. Gordon
I think the ideal food for us is real food over protein powder.
[00:16:04.070] - Dr. Lemanne
Whey would not be a real food.
[00:16:05.960] - Dr. Gordon
I read something recently about a comparison between the value of Whey protein powder and kefir, which is a real food, a fermented dairy product, and that it can have a similar protein building contribution to it. One of the things that I think you and I have both been fascinated with over the last half dozen years is different forms of intermittent fasting. And one of the common ones among my cognitive patients is they really try to go 14,16, 18 hours overnight without eating. Many of them end up eating only two meals a day. That's great for your blood sugar. However, it's not great for your protein consumption because it is hard. Imagine how hard it is to get 120 to 140 grams of protein in three meals a day. Try doing it in two.
[00:16:53.040] - Dr. Lemanne
Right. So you recommend more meals in that eating window?
[00:16:55.900] - Dr. Gordon
I do, exactly. And if you're not going to eat real food, I do recommend protein powders, processed foods though they are. And Whey protein would be my favorite for my other recent profound insight into protein, which we talked about a little bit the other day, which was about essential amino acids.
[00:17:16.130] - Dr. Lemanne
Say more about that.
[00:17:17.340] - Dr. Gordon
[00:17:19.050] - Dr. Lemanne
Refresh help my cognitive processes here.
[00:17:23.230] - Dr. Gordon
Oh, you know, I love to talk about things I'm interested in, so bear with me. Yes. So I learned about this from a former professor of agriculture. Agriculture has taught us a lot about human physiology in general, because in animals, it's money's on the bottom line. And so for an animal to be fed, they don't just say, give them a mixed mash, that'll be fine. They say, this animal needs this many grams of usable protein for their body, for us to get a steak out of them three months from now.
[00:17:53.880] - Dr. Lemanne
See, that's what I really like about the way you think. Going to literature outside of the human studies and being able to bring that in, that's so important. And I do think that we can learn so much from veterinary studies and animal studies because we are able to manipulate animal diets in ways we absolutely can't do with humans. And we slurred so much yes.
[00:18:14.580] - Dr. Gordon
And see outcomes sooner.
[00:18:16.990] - Dr. Lemanne
[00:18:18.590] - Dr. Gordon
So people say, oh, it's another pro meat study. It must be the meat industry funding it. And I think, well, no, it's the University of California Department of Agricultural Studies, so you could say a little bit they have a vested interest to get more students, but it's usually not the meat industry that is sponsoring these studies. But anyway, so you're feeding a pig or a cow or a sheep for market, and they need to have a requisite amount of protein. But they don't just look at how much protein like how many grams. I just ate three eggs, 6 grams of protein apiece, 18 grams of protein. Yes. But was that protein composed of amino acids that I need and can use? And that's where the concept of in both fats and proteins, there are essential fats and essential amino acids that our bodies cannot make from scratch from other similar components in the food. And there's about a dozen amino acids up for essential designation in the human diet, in the animal diet. They've discovered that if you feed an animal abundant protein, but it's lacking in their key essential amino acids, that serves as a rate limiting step for ability to use the protein.
[00:19:37.390] - Dr. Gordon
So they have ten essential amino acids, and eight of them are abundant in their feed, and two of them are woefully deficient. They will only use a woefully deficient amount of all ten amino acids. The analogy that this lecturer used was the different staves holding water in a barrel. And if one of the staves is very short, the barrel doesn't hold any water above the level of the short stave. And our amino acids work the same way. We need the essential amino acids. So people who eat everything are happy to find out that anything that's sourced from an animal, dairy, eggs, meat contain all the essential amino acids. We are much alike with those species, and they have products from their cherished bodies that serve as exactly the food we need, you might say, but I really love this tofu steak at my local lunch place.
[00:20:33.900] - Dr. Lemanne
[00:20:34.620] - Dr. Gordon
Have it with some cheese on the top. Have it with dairy on the side to complete the protein and fill it up.
[00:20:41.050] - Dr. Lemanne
What about if you're a complete vegetarian? I mean, I remember when I was growing up professionally, that there was a lot of talk and people really believed that you had to balance the different types of protein. If you're going to be a vegetarian, you had to mix beans and grains to get a complete complement of essential amino acids. Is that possible to get a good complement of amino acids if you're a vegetarian?
[00:20:59.160] - Dr. Gordon
Were you sitting in my medical school class when vegetarian Mark tried to educate our professor about that. So vegetarian Mark said, can't I balance my rice and beans and get a complete protein? And the lecturer was dumbfounded. He'd never heard of the concept of balancing proteins. And I would say you may be lucky enough sometime to get to completely vegetarian sources, but really, the amino acids, leucine, isolucine, glycine, are rarely found in non animal products.
[00:21:33.070] - Dr. Lemanne
There are people who bodybuild and promote vegan bodybuilding, but there's something about that. I've just recently started learning about non proteinogenic amino acids, and the name that I can remember of one of these is canavanine. I believe that's the name of it? I'll have to look that up. And it's very closely related to another amino acid, but it's incorporated into human proteins as this other normal amino acid. But it's not a normal amino acid for humans. But because it's so close, our enzymes can't quite tell the difference. So our proteins are built with some of this kind of fake amino acid from plants, cannabinine, and the proteins are a little bit distorted. And so therefore, our immune system starts to recognize these slightly distorted proteins as foreign and can't attack them.
[00:22:20.010] - Dr. Gordon
It sounded like such a good idea when you started talking about it. Yeah, I wanted the name of the product for my vegan and vegetarian patients.
[00:22:27.510] - Dr. Lemanne
Right. So it makes me a little bit worried about vegetarian protein supplementation and things like that. Pea protein, rice. There are various forms. Hemp. Yeah. But not to pick too much on the vegetarians and vegans. Aren't there some studies that suggest that patients who eat less protein may do better in terms of longevity and cancer? In fact, Walter Longo at the University of Southern California, who's done a lot of research on cancer caloric restriction fasting and who espouses a vegetarian approach to things, says that the reason caloric restriction works to extend lifespan is not really the caloric restriction. It's that the methionine and a few of the branch chain amino acids are restricted in those diets as well. He's done animal studies with, I believe, rodents that have restricted branch chain amino acids and or methionine and found an extension of lifespan. So I have cancer patients who say, well, do I need to restrict some of these amino acids? And I have to say we don't really know yet. And probably the safest way is to currently restrict calories, especially if you're overweight. Do you have any thoughts on that?
[00:23:34.340] - Dr. Gordon
I think that's fascinating and several things came to mind. One of them is the knee jerk joke responses. Well, your life may be longer, but is it worth anything if you don't get to eat protein and have bigger muscles. But all humorous side, I wonder about the hormetic effect of intermittent protein restriction
[00:23:54.110] - Dr. Lemanne
That's a really interesting topic. Should we be cycling protein on and off? Should we take breaks from protein to diminish signaling in the mTOR pathway and things like that? Would that be helpful for us? That's what Rapamycin does. It decreases mTOR complex one signaling and so does amino acid restriction.
[00:24:13.010] - Dr. Gordon
I love the fact that I can take Rapamycin once a week and I never have to skip my protein intake.
[00:24:18.490] - Dr. Lemanne
Well, we don't know about that. We don't know about are you going to get some blood tests along?
(00:24:24.100] - Dr. Gordon
Certainly. I had blood tests a couple of months before we started, and I presume everything is still stable. But I do want to get them at the end of our little first three month trial, toe-in-the-water of Rapamycin. I want to say something because I want to know what Walter Longo thinks about this, because I know he would have a comment and you, as helping with your cancer patients, would have a comment. One of the ways in which building muscle bulk helps people live longer is it ends up enabling you to have better insulin sensing. So I think I learned from Gary Taubes, who first wrote the book Good Calories, Bad Calories in 2007, and I say frequently, it changed my life. And thanks, Gary. I hope you're listening to this. Thank you for all you've done. Do you never eat carbs? He says, no. You can eat carbs in the first hour after you do vigorous exercise because your muscles are so hungry, they're going to take everything you eat. And number one, you'll grow more muscle if you eat in that first hour after exercise. And number two, your carbs are free because you're not stimulating the whole insulin pathway.
[00:25:33.610] - Dr. Lemanne
So that's interesting. That's an interesting idea. So I'm going to say what I've learned so far. We want to eat as much protein as we possibly can up to how much per kilogram.
[00:25:45.000] - Dr. Gordon
On a busy day for yourself, 2 grams/kg.
[00:25:49.530] - Dr. Lemanne
So 2 grams/kg. You want to take that if you're older, especially with some digestive enzymes, both to help with the protein and also to help with the fat in animal products at least, we want to exercise to stimulate protein uptake into the muscles. Is it fair to say that we want to build as big a muscle mass as we can? And is that possible when you're older?
[00:26:13.170] - Dr. Gordon
Well, it isn't going to be possible by going for a gentle walk in the park.
[00:26:16.830] - Dr. Lemanne
The general exercise guidelines take a walk 30 minutes, five days a week is not going to do it for me.
[00:26:21.880] - Dr. Gordon
Better than nothing. But your visit
[00:26:25.740] - Dr. Lemanne
You didn't sound so pleased with that idea.
[00:26:27.310] - Dr. Gordon
Your frequent visits to the gym in which you lift weights is doing you more good than my perhaps longer walk up into the hills with my dog. So on days that I don't intentionally do something that's lifting weights, I do try and go out to my home gym and do a few body weight exercises.
[00:26:46.380] - Dr. Lemanne
[00:26:46.960] - Dr. Gordon
And people can do those at home. You can do yoga.
[00:26:50.150] - Dr. Lemanne
And what do you do? What kind of body weight exercises can you do?
[00:26:52.280] - Dr. Gordon
Get on the floor and do the plank position
[00:26:54.680] - Dr. Lemanne
Oh, yeah. Okay.
[00:26:55.980] - Dr. Gordon
You can hold on to something for stability if you need it. And do a conscientious squat and doing it carefully not to hurt your knees
[00:27:06.620] - Dr. Lemanne
And the nice slow squat, not bouncing up and down.
[00:27:10.380] - Dr. Gordon
Right: A nice down, as slow as you can. If you're going to do anything fast, come up fast.
[00:27:16.010] - Dr. Lemanne
[00:27:16.600] - Dr. Gordon
And get yourself a simple kettlebell and learn from YouTube. But ideally, work with a trainer if you're my age or even your young age to do a kettlebell swing.
[00:27:28.630] - Dr. Lemanne
Okay. I love kettlebells. I think I've learned so much here. I really am going to double down on my protein tasks. I'll try to cut out the supplements if I can. Whey is the one I use, and I'm not sure I'm going to try frozen liver popsicles,
[00:27:49.170] - Dr. Gordon
But sometime you come over to my house for beef heart chili.
[00:27:52.140] - Dr. Lemanne
I'll bring my cat.
[00:27:54.810] - Dr. Gordon
you have been listening to the Le Mon Gordon Podcast, where docs talk shop.
[00:28:02.620] - Dr. Lemanne
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[00:28:38.940] - Dr. Gordon
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[00:29:05.550] - Dr. Gordon
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